Mean nuns and rulers

Is it Catholic Schools Week or whatever in your part of the country? This past Sunday we were treated to an extra thirty minutes of blah blah blah because we were honoring the Distinguished Alumni from our parish school. A graduate of the class of 1956, a very nice man with a nice-looking family. The church invited his classmates to attend as well and there was a whole pew of white haired former Catholic school students on hand to make the applause louder. It was very sweet and, for the millionth time since we had a kid, I started wondering if we will send him to Catholic school.

I have to say that for the most part, the point is moot. I have my doubts if we will even LIVE here by the time Jack is school-aged, due to the Not Being Able To Afford Even A One Room Shack In The Greater Seattle Area. And because so many people are in that boat, there aren't enough kids to fill all the city Catholic schools. But if we ARE living nearby and our parish school still exists, it's a consideration. I have not heard fabulous things about the local public schools and, hey, we're Catholic. We're also committed members of the parish which means subsidized tuition! I thought private school tuition was something scandalous and since we are not oil tycoons or Microsoft zillionaires, I didn't think Catholic school was an option. But Catholic school is not the same as, say, Lakeside and tuition is something like $4000. Which is not free, but in the realm of barely possible.

And so. Every so often I wonder: will we send Jack to Catholic school?

Sometimes I feel guilty thinking this because I am the Proud Daughter of two career elementary school teachers. Dedicated teachers. The BEST teachers on the PLANET and I will not be persuaded from that point. These are two people who were made to be elementary school teachers and because of them I know a HELL OF A LOT about public school. Teacher politics, working with the administration, crappy teachers, excellent teachers, vile children, sainted children, special ed, getting rid of music and art, Ritalin, planning periods, recess duty, helpful parents, parents who think they are helpful, kids who need parenting, bullies, unions, grievances, funding, what to do when a first grader pees his pants at his desk and acts like it didn't happen.

Yeah. So for some reason I feel like I need to be Faithful to the System. It worked for me! Half of my family and practically all the people we know spend the majority of their time attempting to educate the children within the public school framework and I Will Support It! Or something like that. (And both of my parents are rolling their eyes to the back of their heads because what is with their goofy daughter and her weirdo pronouncements, and while they're at it, what is with her WEBSITE, do you KNOW WHAT SHE SAYS ABOUT US?)

Then my mother moved back to the United States and got herself a teaching job in the same district she worked for when I was in third grade. Washington State, in case you are interested, pays it's teachers in rubles. It installed something called the WASL which, if you listen to my mother, is the Devil in Standardized Test Format. And also, this particular school district was demanding teachers make up for the 15 hours they lost when the school thought there was e. coli in the water and shut everything down, only to later realize, oops!, the water was fine after all! And this is somehow the teachers' fault? (Seriously. The dinner conversations at my parents' house are DELIGHTFUL.)

I was telling my mom about the old guy we honored at church and how it made me think about Catholic schools and for once she didn't say, "Those nuns were the most vicious women on the planet!" She said, "Well, it might be nice to go to a school where they haven't cut music and art and don't spend the entire day teaching from photocopies of old WASL tests!"*

And I hadn't thought about that. When I think about Catholic school I think about the religion part (which is fine with me) and how my friend the Youth Minister swears up and down she will never send her kid to a Catholic school because, the way she sees it, you get an overly sheltered kid who hits 9th grade and turns into an out-of-control alcoholic when he goes to public high school. (We'd probably have to sell our kidneys to fund a Catholic high school education.)  I also think about how I liked going to schools (and a college) where there was at least one kind of everybody. Not that all the kids in a Catholic school are Catholic (oh, how my church is constantly bemoaning the lack of participation from school parents in parish life!) but you know. Of course, that's probably not a huge issue when you are seven.

What sayeth my rabid Catholic readers? Did you go to Catholic schools? Was it a good experience? Did you turn into coke heads when you reentered the secular world? Are you super sick of that stereotype? Do school experiences just totally depend on the kid? Do you feel like you are a [fill in positive word] Catholic because you went to Catholic school? And if you think so, is there a tree-worshiping crystal-owning former Catholic school student for every kid like you? These are the things I wonder.

Not like I need to worry about this any time soon. Right now we're more concerned about not eating the lint in the rug and figuring out how to get from the coffee table to the rocker without conking one's head on the hardwood floors.

*Hello local readers whose children have probably taken the WASL once or twice. I don't REALLY know what it is. Or if it's really the Devil's Own Test or what. And I haven't a clue if teachers teach from old tests. I am using Poetic License! Also! I just know that my mom, the Best Teacher Ever, thinks spending an entire year worrying about making sure the kids ace the WASL (and NOT worrying about anything else, those things don't matter, they aren't on the WASL) is a grand waste of Learning Time and not only that, it is BORING. Anyway. Me=So Not An Authority. Simply full of hot air.

Comments

[Pretzella]

This is something I feel I need to comment about. First, I am NOT Catholic. I am a mom of 4 kids, actually 3 young adults and one kidlet, age 6. Last year we were denied admission to the magnet school of choice and because of geographical proximity to my work, we opted for the Catholic school. BEST thing I have ever done. Why? I have 3 kids that graduated from public school, they did well, not great but B-grades. They all found a niche with friends, etc, but they all do not have the love of education that I had as a student. School was boring, test oriented, socially stressful and just hard to stand out, so why try?
Enter this late in life kid, we are both in education and feel that we wanted some input into her schooling. We tried to select a program, but couldn't get in. She is also very small and as most little ones, sort of spongy to their environment. The Catholic school, with small classes, helped guide her through the work, not force it on her, she is learning concepts and developing resoning skills with this holistic approach.
Yes, she is getting religious education, don't see that it could hurt, maybe makes her think more about others than only herself. The place is safe, the teachers are interested in the whole kid, not just how they do in the class.
I am a product of public education, taught in public high school, I am like your parents believing in the system. But the alternative presents opportunity for maybe finding the love of school and create a life long learner. That is our hope anyway.

[Jenny Ryan]

I think it depends on the temperament of each individual child. I went to a fundamentalist, evangelical Baptist school from PK-7th grade, and because of my own temperament-overly sensitive, noticing things/worrying about things most other kids didn't-and the fact that my particular school really liked talking about the "end times" (end of the world), I have spent MANY years recovering from all the trauma of that experience.

Then when I was in my early 20's I taught in a Catholic school. It was not a diocesan school, but was run by an order called The Legionaries Of Christ, and the environment was just as repressive and abusive as my Baptist school.

My problem with these places was that they were always focusing on what they thought was wrong with me/us students. And so it was not only this constant stream of how we were wrong, but then they brought God into things and said that if we didn't act the way THEY thought we should act, then GOD was angry and hated us too. And I took that very seriously, because they were the adults and I was just a little kid. Plus they did NOT encourage thinking or questioning things for oneself, which is pretty much all I ever do.

It was also hard because my parents went to public schools growing up, and so they had no idea what went on at my religious school, so I never had any other views to balance out what I was hearing at school.

And so for me personally, I have a REALLY hard time now with organized religion because of my experience as both a student and a teacher. It was not the right place for me, but that was just me. It was probably fine for other people who had different nervous systems than I did, or people who had other experiences and viewpoints to balance out what they were getting at school.

[Jess]

There's definitely nothing wrong with thinking about all this stuff early. I mean I don't even plan to try to have kids for a few more years and I still think about this stuff already.

[Stephanie]

I've gone to both public and Catholic school. I started in public school through grade 3, and then we moved and my parents decided the Catholic schools were the best idea. At that point, although my dad was Catholic, my mom and us three kids were not, although we all converted within a year. I also skipped ahead to 5th grade when I moved to Catholic school, something my parents had been pushing for, but the public schools had been against. I think the public schools were right...although academically I was ready for 5th grade, socially I had a really hard time. There were so many people that had been together at the school since kindergarten, that I had a rough time breaking into the established cliques and making friends. There were only 30 students in my grade, so I was with the same group for four years. In middle school, kids are cruel, and it can feel like the entire class is ganging up on you sometimes. Although I did have a tough time socially, I feel like I really got a great education in my time there. I got a lot of opportunities to pursue my interests outside of traditional classroom activities (speech contests, geography bee, etc.)
When my parents gave me the choice to go to the Catholic high school or go to public school, I picked public, both to get into a more diverse social group and to have more athletic opportunities. I felt like academically, I was ahead of my peers, and I adjusted socially pretty easily. I don't know if I would send my hypothetical future children to Catholic school. I'm glad I went, because I feel like it did contribute to my academic success (I'm getting my PhD right now!) but I also wouldn't want my children to go through the social hell I dealt with for middle school. Whew, I had a lot to say about that, sorry!

[Lisa]

Growing up, we lived in rural nowhere, so Catholic schools weren't really an option for us. We did fine with the public schools, but I truly believe that the schools I attended are completely different now than they were then. We learned to be creative and think outside the box and then applied this broad range of knowledge to those dang standardized tests, and got great scores to boot.

Or maybe that was just me. I don't know.

I'm not impressed with our local public schools AT ALL anymore...they do a lot of that "teaching to the test" crap, which is why Olivia will likely get a Catholic School education. Kids don't learn practical application of knowledge if they just have to learn a particular set of things to pass a test.

But overall, I think that the success or failure at either has more to do with the child (and his parents' involvement in his learning) than the school. I don't think my public school education had anything to do with how well I did overall and on those standardized tests...I think it had more to do with my aptitude for learning and my ability to apply the lessons to real life. And the application thing is important...it helps with critical thinking.

The religious education thing is important, too, though.

[Jen]

I went to public and private elementary schools. The private school (not Catholic but an international school when I lived in England) was far and away better than all the public schools. And I went to dozens of different schools. I went to Catholic University and have to say that nuns are probably the nicest group of people I have ever met in my entire life.

[blog nerd]

It makes a huge difference socially to have daily religious training, prayer, sacraments and mass attendance as part of the curriculum.

Can I emphasize that again? Huge.

Catholic education? I'm a fan. I am a product of 13 years of Catholic school. ALL GIRLS Catholic High School. Our nuns weren't mean they were stern and focused and FEMINIST in all the good ways and none of the stupid ones. (Yes I said STUPID.)

Brilliant some of them. OK there was one or two not so nice nuns but why should they be different than the general population? There are bad eggs in every group.

I didn't realize how superior the Catholic educational system was until I taught at public university and now I teach CCD to public school kids. I have a very strong means of comparison, now.

I had an inkling when I attended a secular university and I was head and shoulders above the other students in critical thinking, writing, and exposure to philosophy. There was an unabashed provocation toward excellence I just don't see in public schools. I'm sorry, its just not there. Expectations are lower. There is a regression to the lowest common denominator.

Failure at my school, was simply not an option. Help was offered where needed but failure and lackadasical performance were not only unacceptable from a academic and disciplinary standpoint, but a moral one. This also added powerful social approval for good behavior and academic achievement you will never find in a public school.

In contrast to the woman with a late life child above, my parents sent my 12 years younger brother to public school for the sports programs. They have often said they regretted that decision in almost every way one can regret such a thing. My brother is doing fine of course--but they felt he did not get as good an education as I. I tend to agree.

[Elizabeth]

I went to Catholic school from 3-12th grade. The first time I went to public school was in college.
It's a hard call for me too, though. My favorite thing about my Catholic school was that it was cool to be smart. We all competed like mad with each for the best grades. And my teachers were insanely good. I met my best friend there, and three of the girls from my fifth grade class were bridesmaids in my wedding.
On the other hand, I was really really really sheltered when I got to college. I almost passed out from shock at the first party I went to. But considering what some of the kids in my high school class talked about on Monday morning in school, all that shelteredness was probably more a result of my temperament and my parents. I think stuff went on at those high school parties that I still would be shocked at today, I just didn't go to those parties.
I also have to wonder - how have Catholic schools changed from when I went to them? All my classes WERE taught by nuns, for the most part. And I loved it. I loved the sense of being part of something, a culture, for the first time in my life. And I had some amazing teachers I still think of today. But I don't think there is nearly as much of that anymore. When I went back to visit my old school, most of the novices were from Central or South America. When they are done, they return home.
I also went to a Catholic school that was pretty diverse for the area. And the fact that the tuition was affordable means I didn't go to school with just a bunch of rich snobs. Also important to me. The kids at 20K a year schools aren't, in general, the type I want to raise my kids around.

This is just a long way of saying I think I will send my kids to Catholic school, given the opportunity. I've never seen a commitment to education as strong anywhere else. It definitely has flaws, but they are outweighed by the educational benefits, for me.

[lee]

Well, I'm not sure what you've heard about the local schools, but I've only ever heard good things about Bagley. I mean heck, sjf taught there and even had myself and mr. cooke in to demonstrate what they'd been learning about sound waves with a didjeridu and some drums!

[ashley]

Hmm. I see the dilemma.

Personally, I went to suburban public and urban private (international! yay jen!) schools, then went to a Catholic college. I work in a failing inner city public school now, have done retreats for Catholic high schoolers.

Here's what I think:
In my experience, the high schoolers from Catholic schools were MORE likely to reject their religious upbringing (and my college was like #4 for most beer drinking, solid proof, right?)
The other Catholic school kids were hyper religious and narrow-minded: i.e. "This is the RIGHT Catholicism. X is NOT a Catholic because he thinks X. X will go to HELL!"
So...I didn't view either option as incredibly helpful. I did love going to a Catholic college because of the emphasis on social justice, community service, activism, community development and all kinds of great stuff! It was a more balanced religious approach to education.

I do love how Catholic schools don't have the standardized tests as central to the curriculm, though. I hope this doesn't come across as judgemental, my roommates from college ALL went to Catholic high schools and I love them dearly! I just don't *think* I'd sent my children there. (This is subject to change.)

My public school was fine, nothing spectacular, but it was free :) and I totally agree with Lisa - it's all about the parents. After working in a failing public school, I can say this confidently. Teachers, no matter how great they are or aren't, are no replacement for supportive, educated, INVOLVED parents. (Maggie, I'm sure your parents are the BEST TEACHERS IN THE WORLD...but do you think they'd agree with that assertion? They've been in education longer than I.)

[Tessie]

I went to public school, but that was really the only option due to the size of the town I grew up in.

Hmm, I will have to do a post about this because we are having this debate ALREADY too. BR, if you can believe it, is PRO private school, even if it's religion-based (he's not Catholic, or even religious). I don't know what to think. My gut is like, "private school...UCH!" and I worry how we would mesh with the types of people who frequent private schools. But then, WE'RE considering it, and YOU ARE too, so there must be some normals in the mix. BAH. What to do!

[annie]

Boy did I have to scroll through some looong comments to get here! Looks like this was a good question to ask. Anyway. I was a public school kid all the way through until I chose to go to a strong Catholic university where I encountered a lot of people who were convinced that public schools are the work of the devil. I remember being very defensive about that - I came from a good public school that, though in a small town, really did send successful young people out into the world into many of the best universities. Now that I have my own child, though, I do hope and pray that we'll be able to send our kids to Catholic schools. I have many reasons for this - as a teacher I could more clearly see the difference between what was offered to my students in Catholic Schools vs. their public-school peers. I don't think public schools are bad across the board - but I do see a lot of things happening in them that I do not want to be a part of. So, while our plan is to send our kids to our Parish school (like you...if it still exists) we are also very concerned about the tuition. Not long ago I mentioned to my husband that we need to get serious about saving for College. His response? "Are you kidding? We need to be saving for kindergarten." Ha. It took me a little while to realize that he was serious. And very serious at that. So there's my two cents - no good answers, but at least a shared dilemma.

[annie]

...one more thing... Speaking as a religion teacher in a catholic high school, and having seen what kind of teaching can sometimes go on in religion departments, I think it's important to not just choose Catholic School based on the fact that Jack will get his religious education there. Grade schools are probably a bit different, but I encountered a lot of internal struggles (in teachers, department, and classrooms) when it came to the moral teachings of the Church and the personal opinions of the teachers. In some ways, you have to be even MORE on top of your child's religious ed when he attends Catholic school. I wouldn't let this steer me away from the idea, but it's just something to be aware of.

[Maureen]

I went to a parish school for K-8 and then public high school. I am now a crack addict, but a crack addict with a PhD!

OK, no crack addiction. I think my Catholic elementary school served me well except that I had a really tough time socially in grades 6-8 because about half the class left in grade 5 to attend public middle school, and there were only 16 kids left in my class for those painful middle school years. Since I was the smartest one and also kind of nerdy, many kids were mean to me. Subtly mean, but mean nonetheless. Essentially, I had no friends. Eighth grade totally, totally sucked, and I am still kind of emotionally scarred, to be honest. But I came through it stronger and when I went to public high school (in a different town than my elementary school, so with no kids from there), I had a very good attitude about myself and was able to find the other nerds to be friends with. So, basically, I think my problems stemmed from the class's being so small. In a class of 16 kids, I was the only nerd, so I was isolated, but in a class of 250 kids there were plenty of other nerds to hang out with. You know?

I think my parents would have loved to send us all to Catholic high school, but it's so crazy expensive, it was not possible unless we got scholarships. And we were also fortunate to be in a good school district, so our public high school was pretty good. And I really do have a PhD from an ivy league university, so Catholic elementary school can't have been too terrible for my education.

All this being said, Andrew could have joined either of two parishes near our house, but we ultimately chose St. Michael's because there is an elementary school attached, and that is where we plan to send Jack, assuming we still live in the area. I think Catholic schools are stricter than public schools, but I also think that is good for kids. And we also have a devil standardized test in this state, so it's nice to think it won't be as big of a deal in the parish school.

[Maureen]

Oh! I forgot to say that I never had a nun as a teacher. I had a nun as a principal until she retired when I was in the second or third grade and was replaced with a layperson, and there was one remaining nun teaching while I was there, but I was lucky enough to not get her. They kept moving her around from grade to grade and by the time I was in the 5th grade, she was teaching 7th grade, and then she retired the next year. I have always been glad about this, because she was a mean nun. Now, I'm not saying all teaching nuns are mean, far from it, but she was. She really was. The rest of my family had her, and I have heard all the stories, and now as an adult I wonder why she didn't choose a religious order with a nursing bent instead of a teaching one, because she clearly didn't like kids.

[Mary Catherine]

Hi, I'm a new reader. Nice to meet you.

Ditto to what Jenny Ryan said way up at the top about Legionnaire schools. The Legionnaire school I went to for 3 years was the worst school experience of my life. I felt manipulated and used, and then when they figured out that my parents weren't filthy rich and going to donate millions to the school, I was ignored.

Besides that, though, I've gone to Catholic schools all my life (including a Catholic college, but it wasn't one of the repressive ones) and I loved it. I loved uniforms (and actually wish my wardrobe decisions were still that easy), I loved the security of being around people who generally believed the same things I did, though there were always a few dissenters and they were loved and accepted too; mostly I loved being around people who were receiving good formation in their home lives, so they didn't come to school and act cruel to their classmates to make up for the pain they were feeling at home.

Which brings me to my main point. It mostly depends, I'm quite convinced, on the parents. If you're the hovering parent who has to pre-approve all your child's friends before you allow him to talk to them at all, who wants every second of his life occupied by wholesome activities which you initiate, and who never lets him make any decisions for himself, he'll be likely to rebel once he's free regardless of whether you sent him to Catholic or public schools. (NB: I know it's a balancing act, and I'm not saying you should let him roam the streets all night. I'm just advocating the Aristotelian Golden Mean.)

Also, it's essential to get to know the other parents at whatever school you want to send him to. If he's among good, kind, confident kids who are receiving good formation at home, he will be a lot more likely to be happy with his school, eager to learn, and less likely to rebel than if he's around bratty kids who make him feel like an outsider.

[Kate P]

I had a mixed experience with Catholic schools. My parents transferred me and my brother when I was in 3rd grade, from one Catholic school to another, b/c the former school was apparently not that interested in being orthodox. I had a similar experience to Maureen's in 6-8 and it was frustrating being a smart kid and having to sit through lessons until the rest of the class got it. That said, I had some really good teachers who did the best they could. I got a good religious education for sure. One good teacher was a nun (IHM) who taught me art, and a number of works I did under her instruction got me an art scholarship to a private high school that was Catholic-but-run-by-feminist-nuns. Good academics but lousy theology. My parents are solid Catholics so I had reinforcement at home. (Like the time my mom had a pro-life speaker come talk to my religion class after my teacher allowed another student to show a pro-abortion video.)

That said, high school ended almost 15 years ago, so I'm not sure what the parochial schools are like now. There are fewer of them, I can tell you that much, and most likely have almost all lay teachers. I worry that by the time I have kids (God willing), all the parochial schools in the Archdiocese will be closed. We just heard an announcement that they are building a huge central Catholic high school (consolidating three smaller, more local ones). I guess I'd encourage you to see what goes on in the schools (both types) when the time comes for Jackson. Homeschooling is a last resort for me, but not an entirely remote one. In spite of the fact that I hate jumpers and listen to rock music. :)

[Mrs Marcos]

Most of it has been said but thought I would chime in. I attended a small Catholic school through 8th grade and it was one of the best gifts my parents provided for me. I loved it, I loved everything about it. Even the plaid uniforms that identified me as "one of them." I only had ONE crappy, crazy nun teacher, the rest of my teachers were dedicated and loved what they did. The ONLY draw back was when I went to public high school I was about 2.5 years ahead of the level they were teaching so I was BORED. Honestly, I retyped most of my middle school essays for various high school assignments and usually received higher grades from the public school teachers (lowered expectations?). It all evened out - I ended up at an all girl Catholic college...no groovy uniforms but definitely some kick a$$ teachers that believed in what they were doing.

P.S. have you decided where Fat the Bunny will attend academic training?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I was homeschooled through high school. I'm now going to private college, and so far I don't have any antisocial tendencies except the occasional urge to mutter scathing things at my computer when some idiot posts "All homeschooled kids are antisocial and stupid."
Who knows, maybe it will all fall to pieces when I leave my college on a hill and go out into the Real World.

[Nessa]

Ah yes. Catholic School. My parents both attended Catholic school as they grew up Catholic. I did not. I have friends who went to private Christian school and both had horrible time adjusting to "regular" school. One friend's parents switched her in junior high, so her high school experience wasn't as bad as my other friend. She went straight into high school from private and she had a horrible time adjusting. It was very hard for both of them.

With that said, we consider whether or not we want our future kids to go to private Christian school. There's a lot to be said of the education they get as far as the arts and music. But I think it's the parents responsibility to make sure the transition from private to public is smooth. Or just keep them in private all way to the end (if possible. I do know money doesn't grow on trees).

[ashley]

Maggie - betcha didn't realize what a popular subject this would be! Good thing you wrote about it...next up, politics? :-P

[el-e-e]

So many great comments! I've only read about half so far.

Here's my reasoning for wanting to send my kids to our parish Catholic school: I want them to be able to talk about "CHRISTMAS" in December and "EASTER" in the spring.

Truly, that is basically it. I want my kids' school to reinforce what we are teaching and/or celebrating and/or experiencing at home. And "winter break" isn't good enough for me.

I went to Catholic schools for 13 years, then a private (Methodist in name) university. I can't say if my Catholic education helped or harmed me -- it's all I know and I don't have any comparison. I had wonderful teachers who were part of my family's community or "network" -- we knew each other's kids and relatives, saw each other at church and at basketball games, y'know? I also had a few crappy teachers; like blog nerd said, there are bad eggs in any bunch.

Both my husband and I are grateful that we attended Christian schools, though (he grew up Protestant), and want to be able to give that to our kids, at least through 8th grade. Our Catholic high schools here also cost a kidney or three, and our district's public high school is brand-new and highly regarded.

[el-e-e]

Oh, also, to answer one of your questions: we had a few bad seeds in our Catholic high school who drank too much (ETC)... and partied hard after high school was over. I myself was a goody goody who didn't drink 'til I turned 21. ;) In fact most of the kids in college who'd gone to Catholic schools weren't the party-ing-est ones, as far as I remember.

sorry to hijack comments but this stuff is on my mind, too! (PreK in August for us!!)

[Susan]

I am a product of 13 years of catholic school education and I am a public school teacher. I loved my Catholic school experience. I am so glad my parents made the choice. In terms of education programs and services I think it may not be the best fit for every child, but it can be a very safe and secure learning enviroment a variety of learners. I think I will struggle figuring our where to put my children. But i am guessing that Catholic schools will be our final decision. I am sure you will make the best decision for Jack when you get closer to time!

[Lauren]

WOW!! Lotsa comments!! I'll keep it short and sweet. Im Catholic. Went to Catholic School. Loved it. Felt much more sheltered (in a good way) and if I could afford to do so, would send my kids there as well. I never turned in to a raging alcoholic..(until i had kids that is:)) In fact i was considered something of a good girl among my high school peers. I will say that my parents had a lot to do with that..they reinforced the Catholic Education at home. ok, so much for short and sweet. Good Luck!!